Interview with John Burris

In this edition of FOCUS In Sound, we check in with Dr. John Burris, President of the Burroughs Wellcome Fund, for an annual report in sound for the Fund for 2016. It was a momentous year in so many ways, including for the Burroughs Wellcome Fund, where John has been president since 2008.

Transcription of “Interview with John Burris”

00;00;07;27 – 00;00;39;13
Ernie Hood
Welcome to Focus In Sound, the podcast series from the Focus newsletter published by the Burroughs Wellcome Fund. I’m your host, science writer Ernie Hood. In this edition of Focus In Sound, we check in with Dr. John Burris, president of the Burroughs Wellcome Fund for an annual report in Sound for the Fund for 2016. It was a momentous year in so many ways, including for the Burroughs Wellcome Fund, where John has been president since 2008.

00;00;40;21 – 00;00;43;05
Ernie Hood
Dr. John Burris, welcome to Focus In Sound.

00;00;44;00 – 00;00;47;25
John Burris
Greetings to you, Ernie. It’s always a pleasure to see you and have a chance to chat with you.

00;00;48;15 – 00;01;00;17
Ernie Hood
Well, John, we want to go over several of the fund’s 2016 highlights, but get us started. What would you see as the headline for the year? Was there one overarching development in your thinking?

00;01;01;05 – 00;01;25;05
John Burris
I think, as always, it’s a whole variety since we fund a large number of researchers. But one of the things that sort of jumped out at me is the response of a number of our awardees to the Zika crisis. It turns out that we had funded no one specifically in Zika. In fact, almost no one was being funded in the United States or the world on Zika.

00;01;25;05 – 00;01;58;22
John Burris
But we had, because of our philosophy, which is to pick the best and brightest investigators, we had a number of investigators with the tools which enabled them to shift their focus from other model organisms, other viral diseases, other mosquito borne pathogens, and focus on Zika. So in a relatively short period of time, six or eight of our investigators actually had projects on Zika, ranging from one new was looking at how Zika was crossing the placenta.

00;01;59;02 – 00;02;28;28
John Burris
Another looking at the epidemiology of Zika. So I think as an illustration of our philosophy, which is to find investigators who have the tools, the initiative, the innovative skills to pursue questions that they not necessarily even knew about when they started the project, when they started as scientists was borne out in this response to Zika. So we were very pleased with that.

00;02;28;28 – 00;02;36;16
John Burris
And we put together a brochure slash booklet which chronicles the activities of six of our investigators working on Zika.

00;02;36;23 – 00;02;44;21
Ernie Hood
John, what you just told me speaks very much also to what I would perceive as the flexibility of of the fund.

00;02;45;09 – 00;03;12;13
John Burris
Yes. And I think probably when we talk to the individuals who receive funding from us, who are career development authorities and others, they comment that one of the reasons they particularly like being funded by the Burroughs Wellcome is that we don’t expect them to spend all their money in one year. So we don’t see anybody spending on December 28th and ordering 10,000 pipettes to use up their money for the year.

00;03;12;16 – 00;03;32;21
John Burris
We let them carry money forward and we tell them we’re really betting on you as an individual and we’re betting that you will do a good job in science, in answering important questions. And we’re as flexible as those scientists are if they change direction. And it’s a reasonable change. The dollars are flexible and follow them.

00;03;33;15 – 00;03;42;24
Ernie Hood
John, The fund’s basic mission, of course, is to fund biomedical research and education. How would you say that mission was pursued in 2016?

00;03;43;17 – 00;04;24;01
John Burris
Well, we fund individuals and organizations, the individuals doing biomedical research. And organization. Some of our grants are actually organizational. And then in the educational world, we fund both individuals and also schools, universities, etc., is pursued the same way that it has been for many years, which is we see our goal as enhancing research and improving education. And so the way it’s pursued is as different as the individuals who pursue it.

00;04;24;19 – 00;04;54;27
John Burris
So you may have one investigator who approaches this problem from a very multidisciplinary stance who connects with a lot of individuals, who does interdisciplinary research, that involves colleagues who are mathematicians or physicists or chemists or biochemists and other individuals who tend to work in a much more individual fashion. So when you talk about pursue, research is pursued because we provide flexible funding in a very flexible way.

00;04;55;01 – 00;05;17;24
John Burris
And at the educational area, again, we want the funding to make its way to the ultimate recipient, which is of course the student or the teacher, the teacher as the individual who assists the student and of course the student as being the group that we ultimately want to learn more about science, more about mathematics, more about technology.

00;05;18;11 – 00;05;23;21
Ernie Hood
So how were existing programs changed or expanded over the course of the year?

00;05;24;11 – 00;05;53;24
John Burris
That’s a good question. One of the things that, you know, if not in our mission statement, certainly one of our principles, is that we fund areas that we consider important yet underfunded. Let me take as an example preterm birth, an incredibly important area. About 12% of babies in the United States are born prematurely. But there’s very little support for understanding of prematurity, very little understanding of the basic reproductive biology.

00;05;54;12 – 00;06;20;13
John Burris
So that’s an example of how our program has evolved and grown. We see as underfunded yet important. And sometimes the opposite happens. And one of the examples of that would be what we call translational research that is moving from the bench to the bedside. Incredibly important area. When we started funding it. Very few foundations were involved in it.

00;06;20;13 – 00;06;45;17
John Burris
There was very little work being done where the basic research was being translated into something that could be used to assist a patient, help procure a patient. And we were giving in the ballpark of 5 to $10 million a year, which for us is substantial. But the niche has jumped into that with both feet as established and institute specifically directed in that area.

00;06;45;25 – 00;07;02;19
John Burris
And so we thought, yes, this is still important, but we don’t see it as being underfunded at the same level when we started with it. So there’s always some things move off center stage as others pick them up as other ones sort of emerge as issues of importance.

00;07;03;10 – 00;07;07;17
Ernie Hood
So has the overall focus changed? Has it evolved over the years?

00;07;08;14 – 00;07;36;03
John Burris
I think the overall focus of biomedical research and education has stayed the same. So that’s our mission. Our mission statement has remained the same, but within that, clearly changes have occurred. Let us talk briefly about education. Initially, we supported only so-called informal science and math education, that is education that occurs outside the classroom. And we saw that as our niche.

00;07;36;17 – 00;08;12;12
John Burris
And so we focused on that when we focused on education. We’ve realized that there is a need for a lot more assistance to be provided to teachers. A number of school districts have dropped any professional development for their teachers, and we saw that in fact, a bit more of a focus on teachers was warranted, not just the informal out of school education, but also providing professional development for teachers and also recognizing teachers through career awards just as we give to the scientists.

00;08;12;29 – 00;08;38;08
John Burris
So although we still remain interested in focused on science and math education in North Carolina, we are now focusing not just on providing resources and opportunities for the students, but also for the teachers, since we see how important they are. If we have a teacher, he or she will reach my classroom a day, and if they’re a specialist, they’ll even reach even more than those 30 or so students.

00;08;38;08 – 00;08;44;06
John Burris
So that would be an example of sort of a change in our funding in education.

00;08;44;29 – 00;09;02;18
Ernie Hood
Obviously, the fund has been engaged in these activities for many years now. Do you think you’re seeing tangible results returns on your investments in scientific research, scientists, career development and secondary science education?

00;09;02;27 – 00;09;33;02
John Burris
Interesting question, because of course outcomes is something that foundations and everyone else who provides funding is always asking, is my funding having any effect? Am I changing the world for the better? And we’re pretty confident that, in fact, if we look at our researchers, our funding has made a difference and those researchers in turn have made a difference in research as it’s conducted in the United States primarily.

00;09;33;19 – 00;10;08;28
John Burris
How do we quantify that? We look at things like publications. We look at where articles are published that sort of the commodity or the measure that oftentimes is applied in science. We look at how they’re moving through the promotion and tenure system. Are they getting promoted? Are they receiving tenure at various colleges and universities? We look at their funding from sources other than the Burroughs Wellcome Fund, and we’re gratified to see that they’re also getting grants from the National Institutes of Health, National Science Foundation.

00;10;09;12 – 00;10;46;13
John Burris
So by every measure, the individuals that we’re funding, in fact, are becoming or have become successful scientists. So we’re quite comfortable in that area in the area of education. That’s always a tough one to measure short of tests. And since we provide primarily support and informal education, we’re less able to quantify that. But we do ask the students that participate in our programs questions about do you have more or less of an interest in being a scientist?

00;10;46;18 – 00;11;09;11
John Burris
Did you meet a scientist? Would you tell your friends to take this program? Do you feel you know more about science and more excited about science? And it turns out that those questions which are posed at the end of our programs, 80 to 90% of the participants say, I’m more excited about science. I tell my friend about science.

00;11;09;29 – 00;11;34;01
John Burris
I’d love to come back and participate in this program. I want to be a scientist type of responses. So in fact, we see it that way. We don’t longitudinally follow the students since their grades K through 12, all the way through their lives. They come in and we have our opportunity to support things that we see as helpful to them in science, education and mathematics.

00;11;34;12 – 00;11;45;24
John Burris
But at least we know that qualitatively we have a group that is better informed about science and as importantly, is excited about science.

00;11;46;21 – 00;11;50;04
Ernie Hood
John What’s ahead for the Burroughs Wellcome Fund in 2017?

00;11;50;18 – 00;12;21;00
John Burris
Well, I think we’ll continue with our commitment to supporting biomedical research and education. I think in the education world, we’ve been putting some more focus on distribution of information. So if people want to know about education, we’re have a one stop shopping sort of portal where you can come to the NC STEM center and we sort of provide a table of contents that tells people about all the activities in science.

00;12;21;00 – 00;12;44;03
John Burris
We’re connecting this up with the entire U.S.. Slowly but surely, putting this sort of portal one stop shopping together throughout the U.S. But right now in North Carolina, if you want to know what’s going on, you can go to the NC STEM Center online and learn more about activity in science, technology, engineering and math activities throughout North Carolina.

00;12;44;03 – 00;13;13;00
John Burris
So we see, I think, more of that type of information provision. We’ll continue to support teachers, will continue to support afterschool science, will continue to support Singapore, math programs will continue to support providing funding for teachers to buy equipment and supplies. But in sense of what you’re looking for new in 2017, I think there’ll be more of a push direction that I alluded to relative to the M.S. STEM Center.

00;13;13;17 – 00;13;43;03
John Burris
Another thing when we look in science in general are programs. Again, we’re happy with them. We constantly are reviewing them. Right now, we’re looking at how do you get more M.D.s to undertake research? There are a lot of barriers to AMD’s doing research ranging from the high debt that they come out of medical school with, including the differential in pay between someone who’s in the clinic and seeing patients versus someone that’s doing research.

00;13;43;13 – 00;14;08;00
John Burris
The length of time, the average first hour or one, which is one of the research grants from NIH, that’s kind of a measure of science. Average M.D. doesn’t receive one of those until he or she is 45 years old. So that’s a pretty good barrier. You don’t get your first grant till you’re 45. So we’re looking at areas where we might be able to encourage and provide more support for MDs to do research.

00;14;08;00 – 00;14;49;17
John Burris
Since the percentage of MDS doing research is very small in the United States, and yet they bring a perspective that’s helpful in the research world. As many of you, of course know, the world is becoming more quantifiable. There’s more, as they call it, big data, there’s more information. How do you handle it? How do you get biology and the quantitative sciences merged so that you can mine all this data and you’ve heard about big data and you’ve heard about data mining and we’re looking at a program where we provide support and training for biologists in this area, which we see as sort of a long term continually growing area and one we want to have

00;14;49;17 – 00;14;52;19
John Burris
more of our biologists engaged and involved in.

00;14;53;03 – 00;15;02;10
Ernie Hood
John, to broaden our focus just a bit at this point, what do you see as the overall state of the scientific enterprise in the U.S. today?

00;15;02;12 – 00;15;24;02
John Burris
Well, I’m happy and I’m sad. I think it’s a mixture. I think there’s been enormous success in science research, biomedical research in the U.S. and I think we should be excited and proud of that. I guess I’m worried about what I’ll call the aging of the workforce. We’re training a lot of younger people, but they don’t get into the workforce.

00;15;24;18 – 00;15;56;11
John Burris
They don’t get their first jobs. They don’t get there are ones until they’re really old or older. As I said, the average NIH first grant for an M.D. is 45, for an M.D., Ph.D. is 44. And so you worry about the aging of the workforce. You worry how that discourages younger people. You graduate from college at 21 years old or 22 years old, and you look at individuals and you think, good heavens, it’s 20 more years before I get a job and start getting funded.

00;15;56;11 – 00;16;23;16
John Burris
Research. So I worry about the fact that there are almost no individuals under about 35, 36 years old who have grants and have labs and are doing research. So I always worry and I think most of my colleagues would also consider this an area that they’re worrying about. How do we keep young people actively engaged and how do we more rapidly give them the independence they need to do good science?

00;16;23;26 – 00;16;56;00
John Burris
And that’s balanced by my continuous optimism about the quality and intelligence and innovation of young people. We will keep having great people going into science, and I want to make it as attractive an option for them as possible. But science is booming in the sense of new discoveries, new applications of those discoveries. So I’ll always remain optimistic about the path and future of biomedical research and science.

00;16;56;11 – 00;17;02;12
John Burris
With all those caveats about how we can keep more people engaged and get the best and brightest involved.

00;17;02;24 – 00;17;29;12
Ernie Hood
John, when you were a guest on my radio show in November 2012, it was the day after the last presidential election. So our first question and answer was actually about that, right? It seems appropriate to revisit that question in light of the more recent election we’ve just been through. What impact do you see on the scientific enterprise in the U.S. as a result of this election’s outcome?

00;17;29;24 – 00;17;57;26
John Burris
I’m not trying to evade answering the question, but quite simply, it’s too soon to tell science other than climate science and environmental science, which of course were questioned during this election, were pretty much avoided. We’re not part of the dialog. Neither candidate said much of anything about biomedical science, and certainly President Trump said little or nothing about it.

00;17;58;10 – 00;18;20;01
John Burris
So we really don’t know. And I’m loath to predict the famous quote you always see at the end of the stock market is past performances. No prediction of the future. And I feel that way a little bit. What we do know is that Francis Collins, who’s the head of NIH, is, at least for the moment, been retained as head of NIH.

00;18;20;11 – 00;18;45;00
John Burris
We don’t know how long term that is and what impact that will have. And so we’re probably, in my opinion, too close to the election and too close to the ascendancy of Mr. Trump as the president of the United States. I’ve watched a number of interviews, listen to him, read his tweets, and have yet to see anything about biomed article research.

00;18;45;12 – 00;19;07;01
John Burris
It is certainly not in the front burner right now. We do hope that we get a science adviser relatively quickly because that sends a message about science. But really I just have to assume a wait and see when you ask the question. Four years ago, I had four years of experience. It was the second term for President Obama.

00;19;08;00 – 00;19;32;22
John Burris
We knew who he had in place. We had four years of performance today we have essentially zero days of performance. So we can’t predict. I can’t say that over the years, the Congress in recent years has been sympathetic to biomedical research. The Congress has not changed radically. So that may or may not continue to be the case. Maybe you’ll have to wait till the midterm elections, Ernie, to ask me about them.

00;19;32;22 – 00;19;44;26
John Burris
Or maybe something a little close to time. If I had an answer, I would be happy to provide it. But I think I, like most everybody in the United States, really doesn’t know what’s going to happen next.

00;19;45;00 – 00;20;01;20
Ernie Hood
Well, John, I know that 2016 was a big year for you personally also. And we don’t want to let this opportunity go by without getting you to tell us about your recognition by the American Association for the Advancement of Science or Triple A? Yes.

00;20;02;01 – 00;20;11;20
John Burris
Well, that’s very nice of you to bring it up, Ernie. I was pleased and proud to have been selected as one of their fellows this year. So I appreciate your comments in that regard. Thank you.

00;20;12;06 – 00;20;22;06
Ernie Hood
John. It’s been a wonderful conversation. And obviously 2016 was a banner year for the Burroughs Wellcome Fund. Thank you so much for joining us here on Focus In Sound.

00;20;22;08 – 00;20;22;22
John Burris
Thank you.

00;20;23;04 – 00;20;38;06
Ernie Hood
We hope you’ve enjoyed this edition of the Focus In Sound podcast. Until next time this is a any good. Thanks for listening.